Saturday, July 14, 2007

Agreement To Disagree


A very important discussion is taking place at Fr. Jake’s Place and it is well worth checking out and putting in your two cents worth.

15 comments:

Jane R said...

Thanks very much, Mickey, for pointing us toward Jake. I'd not read him for a while (part weariness and part travel - have had to cut way down on blog-hopping - and part writing space for myself) and am grateful to you for sending me back there. I'll probably stay quiet on this, but am trying to read attentively and listen deeply. Once I have something new and interesting to say, I'll say it, but for now others are doing it fine.

BTW, I found out when I was out West that Bill Countryman and Mary Ann Tolbert are working on a book on biblical interpretation and sexuality responding to same by Robert Gagnon et al.

Caminante said...

I have and probably not too patiently.

Padre Mickey said...

Thanks for the info on the book, Jane, and Caminante, everything you posted made sense to me!

Caminante said...

"everything you posted made sense to me!" Well, thanks. I just cannot imagine what it is like to live with such a sense of judgementalism, that is, the capacity to deem others sinners (probably oneself, too, but that's sad). Where's God's grace and redemption? It's sad news, not good news. But, then, there's my judgementalism.

toujoursdan said...

I get to be the pessimistic one. There is nothing new in the proposal. The church already acknowledges that there is disagreement on this and has never forced any congregation to accept a gay priest/bishop in a relationship or do blessings. When VGR was consecrated he met with dissenting congregations and attempted to find an alternative bishop to care for them.

I broke my fast and looked at the comments and the ones from people like +Matt are pretty much what I expected. There is no room for disagreement. The way HE reads scripture is the way everyone must read it and if you don't you're not a real Christian [tm].

That has been the attitude of the SF crowd for several years. We can't agree to disagree. There is no room for informed conscience. There is no true Christianity if it is polluted by gay priests and blessings and they must separate. It may have some utility to articulate this the way Fr Jake has but it won't do anything to change the politics of the church.

PseudoPiskie said...

They are like dry drunks. Their world is black and white, no grey. They make decisions which they must be cling to at all cost. Otherwise their world is shattered and they don't know where to turn. It is a very low level of thinking and not really anything resembling faith. They seem to create and relish their own hell. Sad.

Padre Mickey said...

Well, I like Paul's idea, and it appeals to me from a Global Center perspective. Here in the Global Center we realized that we probably won't all agree on these issues, so we would concentrate on the gospel. But I agree with you all; Matt+ and the others are quite positive that they are right and have no desire to change or consider other perspectives.
I made the mistake of visiting Titus 1:9 today, and Kendall had posted about a church which started a "God not guns" program, and all the commenters (at that time) wrote in supporting guns. One person perverted the idea of the parable we heard this morning's gospel, saying that being a neighbor required him to protect his family and his neighbor, so he needed a gun.
I despair of actually reaching people who think like that.

Grandmère Mimi said...

Padre Mickey, I thought Paul's ideas worthy of consideration. They are practical and specific and could point a way forward.

I said so at Fr. Jake's way past the 200 mark in the comments.

Caminante said...

"One person perverted the idea of the parable we heard this morning's gospel, saying that being a neighbor required him to protect his family and his neighbor, so he needed a gun"

May God have mercy on us all.

I must live on another planet. Certainly not the same country but, alas, it is. (There are days, many, when I am ready to bail on the US.)

Anonymous said...

I think it all needs to be said and done over and over again until we "get it"..."we" means "we" but unfortunately, for them, I've been aware of tolerating "them" for a lifetime...I wonder if tolerating is the right word when "manipulating" them is probably closer to my character and actual behavior...not good on any front but I'm still alive which seems a plus (to me).

Leonardo Ricardo

Reverend Ref + said...

Totally off-topic, but the pancake art has been blogged.

Caminante said...

Hey y'all -- be careful where you put the crosses -- (if you do at all, I don't): a cross in front of someone's name indicates they are a bishop. I don't think Matt is a bishop yet. Best, just leave the crosses off since we are all marked and sealed as Christ's own forever.

Padre Mickey said...

Why hasn't Matt been appointed missionary bishop from some Global South province yet? That boy is slacking off!

Jane R said...

Thanks Caminante, I am rather averse to the little crosses myself. Too much clericalism.

eileen said...

I think it's important to remember that Matt, Greg, and David's crowds are extremists.

There is no way forward with them - they have made this eminently clear. However, this could work for the shades of gray people on both sides - the mass middle, who, when they bother to think about what's going on at all, are looking for some positive guidance on how to do so, and maintain their sanity.

The "Orthodox" Anglicans (which seems oxymoronic to me) have already separated themselves. They have declared TEC heretical, apostate for their various, diverse reasons, and are mentally out the door. Trying to reconcile with them is like trying to do marriage counseling with someone who has already made a firm decision to divorce - it's just going through the motions, to say "we did everything we could" but their mind was made up.

The covenant process is for those who are willing to live with the difference, who realize that they could be wrong, even if they feel strongly that they are right. The mass middle.

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